[lcafs] Re: Venn diagram
"I would say almost all of the ones that do not believe in global warming are right wing conservatives. I do not understand what politics has to do with this at all. It must have something to do with control and economics."Pride, and it's attendant, greed; belief, not politics.Ironic isn't it? the seven deadly sins are destroying the integrity of this rare jewel planet,
and making human life itself face an ever less tenable existence here;
quite frequently in the name of one of greatest teachers of humility and compassion. Why do USians vote for the winner instead of the candidate they agree with?
Why does empire over-reach as soon as it arises?
Why is human induced global warming only in question in the "most powerful" nation? It goes before the fall, and is indistinguishable from greed,
because it is to wear blinders to put pride or profit first. Politics has nothing to do with always being right,
thus forgetting the most important wisdom ("wise man knows nothing" Lao Tzu),
that is just prideful self aggrandizing "belief".Literalistic reliance on external "proofs", such as the bible and the pope,
is, at core, simply the need to be prideful and important oneself,
and to just feel secure in always being right,
due to which we farm out our experience and thoughts of the world,
to experts and lords, who think they may tell us what to believe. If we let them believe they can, then who is to blame?
if our experts do not respect us enough to be straight with us? If God tells us to commit infanticide and genocide, then that is, by it's nature, good?
(William Lane Craig justifies the biblical account of genocide in Canaan here). Never mind that all social mammals have necessarily strong instincts
against wanton destruction, other forms of wasted effort, and other such unfairness. Good is, by it's nature, the opposite of stupid and/or unfit,
which for humans includes the foundation of survival scale importance of massive mutual aid.The accumulated knowledge and social compacts,
that all wealth is built upon, is our shared heritage of culture,
the only thing that we have actually added much to among all earthlings' abilities.Using our ability to accumulate culture over generations,
primarily to concern oneself with an abstract body of evil,
can only obscure what is obvious to every other sensible being.
Not politics, but belief, although all beliefs have political ramifications. Indeed, most beliefs that persist are "designed",
through means very similar to biologic genetic evolution,
to support the strongest possible social hierarchy, the one able to militarily defeat all comers. Why else have we signed our future over to the mechanics of social organization?
Why give the helm of law to virtual machines that are nothing but legal fictions,
of imaginary persons, designed solely to avoid any individual investor's responsibility
for results of their own pursuit of profit uber alles?Why are the biggest costs always public? while the control of capital and profits are private? Why do corps(es) write our laws?
We are too prideful and greedy to admit to ourselves that no actual human is in charge!Social mammals have very good reasons for a strong instinct to avoid extremities of unfairness,
only the teachings of religion can make massacres and mass extinctions all right.For a social mammal, fitness is comprised mostly of cooperation and the detection of deceit.
So, why do so many humans have busted bulls#!t detectors? The mystery of the vegetarian elephant's huge brain is solved,
only when one realises the evolutionary importance of detecting deceit,
in such an interdependent community,
which requires over 2 years to produce a competent infant. Through extensive indoctrination and habit dependence
one may erase even the crap detector of the most intelligent and social of mammals,
for deception is fundamentally easier than it's detection. The potential value of deceit is based on the degree of value of cooperation,
the detection of deceit is a more complex and nuanced task than is deception,
and the brain's evolution is driven primarily by the value of this bull detection. If we reduce the value of deceit, hate, and aggression, to our social actions,
we also reduce the confusion that makes deceit so easy in a complex human society. Human nature is first to be altruist, only then follows deception.
Conflict is the very last resort for the actual nature of humans. Even in war, deception, and it's detection, reign supreme.Millennia of hierarchies at war, under the weight of
many hundreds of millions of years seeking better cooperation with our own kind,
fails to really modify our instinctive sense of fairness,
which recent experimentation shows we share with most mammals.All we have to do is recognize each other as the sibling we actually are,
and the instinct for war becomes an instinct for peace.Entire villages of San people will migrate to a neighbouring village just to
settle a dispute between two individuals,
they will take as long as it takes to reach a consensus minus one,
but only when it is clear full consensus indeed cannot be reached.The more human scaled a society, the more egalitarian,
less deceptive, and less belligerent, it is.I'm probably the only anarch, and Green Party activist, in the group
(very anti-ism and anti-ist,
i believe ideology and expert-ism [not necessarily expertise]
are a huge waste of time under current conditions,
when most of us agree on all the most important things, but can't seem to get any of it done),
and I'll bet politics divides us less then we think.The real divide is between our entire political culture, and reality.
When people learn what is really going on they pretty much all respond the same,
with very little real difference between the false opposition of left and right poles. I believe our politics should consist solely of what we each want to do,
and what we each will compromise on doing, directly and right now.Why is not an issue, everyone wants to survive, and most know we can only do it together.
Only together can we even be made aware of the very ramifications of our own actions,
without deceit and other forms of hegemony, there are no actual political issues.
Most USians are inclined to leave each other their freedoms,
and to take political responsibilities seriously.I strongly believe we each should have a religion of our own devising, or none at all,
faiths and beliefs should not form the basis of political discourse,
which needs be based in systematic thought and demonstrable probabilities. My own religion is based in contemplation of:
cosmology, physics, anthro, bio, tao, chi, (all schools of effective systematic thought really),
my own experience (psychedelia and probability gaming not being the least of factors),
and common themes of historical spiritual theory, practice, and teachings.Eventually it helped me stop being the atheist
who tore up the Methodist priest in my second Sunday school
[they had to bring him in early, the nuns(?) couldn't answer my questions,
couldn't actually hear them i suspect - "so... where did God come from then?"],
when i was 3 (i think i was kinda kicked out, it never became an issue,
my parents stopped attending after that)}.As a young atheist, I found only one hero, or role model, who had seemed
to attempt the impact i sought, Jesus, who must be based in some historical situation,
which i have as yet failed fully to imagine the reality of.Not only did this incline me to notice our inner voice of godhood,
and incline me to forgo martyrdom, or anything else that helps your enemies write your history,
but it also made it very clear that many "real" Christians look at even trying to be Christ-like
as being very inhuman, unnatural, and extremely prideful.
"Lord" only knows what such people actually think humility and compassion are.My religion can be somewhat summed up in the words of Lao Tzu,
the practices of WI's tribal natives (and other aboriginal tribal cultures) and Zen,
and an unfounded leap of faith in reiterative big bangs.My logo is "Allness Is Being". I'm a gnostic agnostic atheist (i have had direct contact with the goodhood,
and that has taught me directly that I'm not sure we're alone in this galaxy,
so i continue to function largely as a bewondered atheist,
without feeling confident i do, or do not, know anything at all, or Allness).The LeTourneau motto is "god alone is my master"
(seul un dieu est mon maître).
My own part in Allness's becoming, is my god.
Thus, i am my only master,
and the only expert at being me.Kill your inner hierarch to ignore all masters.
Forget authority, question reality.Choose to be blind,
or remember to feel. Monte Letourneau
WIGP Rec. Sec.,
and making human life itself face an ever less tenable existence here;
quite frequently in the name of one of greatest teachers of humility and compassion. Why do USians vote for the winner instead of the candidate they agree with?
Why does empire over-reach as soon as it arises?
Why is human induced global warming only in question in the "most powerful" nation? It goes before the fall, and is indistinguishable from greed,
because it is to wear blinders to put pride or profit first. Politics has nothing to do with always being right,
thus forgetting the most important wisdom ("wise man knows nothing" Lao Tzu),
that is just prideful self aggrandizing "belief".Literalistic reliance on external "proofs", such as the bible and the pope,
is, at core, simply the need to be prideful and important oneself,
and to just feel secure in always being right,
due to which we farm out our experience and thoughts of the world,
to experts and lords, who think they may tell us what to believe. If we let them believe they can, then who is to blame?
if our experts do not respect us enough to be straight with us? If God tells us to commit infanticide and genocide, then that is, by it's nature, good?
(William Lane Craig justifies the biblical account of genocide in Canaan here). Never mind that all social mammals have necessarily strong instincts
against wanton destruction, other forms of wasted effort, and other such unfairness. Good is, by it's nature, the opposite of stupid and/or unfit,
which for humans includes the foundation of survival scale importance of massive mutual aid.The accumulated knowledge and social compacts,
that all wealth is built upon, is our shared heritage of culture,
the only thing that we have actually added much to among all earthlings' abilities.Using our ability to accumulate culture over generations,
primarily to concern oneself with an abstract body of evil,
can only obscure what is obvious to every other sensible being.
Not politics, but belief, although all beliefs have political ramifications. Indeed, most beliefs that persist are "designed",
through means very similar to biologic genetic evolution,
to support the strongest possible social hierarchy, the one able to militarily defeat all comers. Why else have we signed our future over to the mechanics of social organization?
Why give the helm of law to virtual machines that are nothing but legal fictions,
of imaginary persons, designed solely to avoid any individual investor's responsibility
for results of their own pursuit of profit uber alles?Why are the biggest costs always public? while the control of capital and profits are private? Why do corps(es) write our laws?
We are too prideful and greedy to admit to ourselves that no actual human is in charge!Social mammals have very good reasons for a strong instinct to avoid extremities of unfairness,
only the teachings of religion can make massacres and mass extinctions all right.For a social mammal, fitness is comprised mostly of cooperation and the detection of deceit.
So, why do so many humans have busted bulls#!t detectors? The mystery of the vegetarian elephant's huge brain is solved,
only when one realises the evolutionary importance of detecting deceit,
in such an interdependent community,
which requires over 2 years to produce a competent infant. Through extensive indoctrination and habit dependence
one may erase even the crap detector of the most intelligent and social of mammals,
for deception is fundamentally easier than it's detection. The potential value of deceit is based on the degree of value of cooperation,
the detection of deceit is a more complex and nuanced task than is deception,
and the brain's evolution is driven primarily by the value of this bull detection. If we reduce the value of deceit, hate, and aggression, to our social actions,
we also reduce the confusion that makes deceit so easy in a complex human society. Human nature is first to be altruist, only then follows deception.
Conflict is the very last resort for the actual nature of humans. Even in war, deception, and it's detection, reign supreme.Millennia of hierarchies at war, under the weight of
many hundreds of millions of years seeking better cooperation with our own kind,
fails to really modify our instinctive sense of fairness,
which recent experimentation shows we share with most mammals.All we have to do is recognize each other as the sibling we actually are,
and the instinct for war becomes an instinct for peace.Entire villages of San people will migrate to a neighbouring village just to
settle a dispute between two individuals,
they will take as long as it takes to reach a consensus minus one,
but only when it is clear full consensus indeed cannot be reached.The more human scaled a society, the more egalitarian,
less deceptive, and less belligerent, it is.I'm probably the only anarch, and Green Party activist, in the group
(very anti-ism and anti-ist,
i believe ideology and expert-ism [not necessarily expertise]
are a huge waste of time under current conditions,
when most of us agree on all the most important things, but can't seem to get any of it done),
and I'll bet politics divides us less then we think.The real divide is between our entire political culture, and reality.
When people learn what is really going on they pretty much all respond the same,
with very little real difference between the false opposition of left and right poles. I believe our politics should consist solely of what we each want to do,
and what we each will compromise on doing, directly and right now.Why is not an issue, everyone wants to survive, and most know we can only do it together.
Only together can we even be made aware of the very ramifications of our own actions,
without deceit and other forms of hegemony, there are no actual political issues.
Most USians are inclined to leave each other their freedoms,
and to take political responsibilities seriously.I strongly believe we each should have a religion of our own devising, or none at all,
faiths and beliefs should not form the basis of political discourse,
which needs be based in systematic thought and demonstrable probabilities. My own religion is based in contemplation of:
cosmology, physics, anthro, bio, tao, chi, (all schools of effective systematic thought really),
my own experience (psychedelia and probability gaming not being the least of factors),
and common themes of historical spiritual theory, practice, and teachings.Eventually it helped me stop being the atheist
who tore up the Methodist priest in my second Sunday school
[they had to bring him in early, the nuns(?) couldn't answer my questions,
couldn't actually hear them i suspect - "so... where did God come from then?"],
when i was 3 (i think i was kinda kicked out, it never became an issue,
my parents stopped attending after that)}.As a young atheist, I found only one hero, or role model, who had seemed
to attempt the impact i sought, Jesus, who must be based in some historical situation,
which i have as yet failed fully to imagine the reality of.Not only did this incline me to notice our inner voice of godhood,
and incline me to forgo martyrdom, or anything else that helps your enemies write your history,
but it also made it very clear that many "real" Christians look at even trying to be Christ-like
as being very inhuman, unnatural, and extremely prideful.
"Lord" only knows what such people actually think humility and compassion are.My religion can be somewhat summed up in the words of Lao Tzu,
the practices of WI's tribal natives (and other aboriginal tribal cultures) and Zen,
and an unfounded leap of faith in reiterative big bangs.My logo is "Allness Is Being". I'm a gnostic agnostic atheist (i have had direct contact with the goodhood,
and that has taught me directly that I'm not sure we're alone in this galaxy,
so i continue to function largely as a bewondered atheist,
without feeling confident i do, or do not, know anything at all, or Allness).The LeTourneau motto is "god alone is my master"
(seul un dieu est mon maître).
My own part in Allness's becoming, is my god.
Thus, i am my only master,
and the only expert at being me.Kill your inner hierarch to ignore all masters.
Forget authority, question reality.Choose to be blind,
or remember to feel. Monte Letourneau
WIGP Rec. Sec.,
I am probably the conservative in this group. I also believe that global warming is a fact. I do not understand why the deniers all seem to tie their beliefs to politics. I would say almost all of the ones that do not believe in global warming are right wing conservatives. I do not understand what politics has to do with this at all. It must have something to do with control and economics. Can anyone enlighten me on this? Regards, Dave Y
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Mark Kartman <mjkartz@centurytel.net> wrote:
As a career Biology teacher deeply into Darwin, I have always been surprised at the resistance to teaching evolution as well as learning about it. It seems many bio teachers would rather skip the chapters on evolution rather than rock their students' boats. I'm currently wondering if the birthers, global warming deniers, people who believe the earth/universe is < 10,000 years old, perhaps the tea party people would have any of these beliefs in common. Hence the reference to venn diagram. I have not seen nor searched for any data, I'm tossing out the thought for any comments. I have never heard nor personally witnessed any resistance to plate techtonics "theory" or atomic "theory" other than tinkering with incidentals.----- Original Message -----From: mary leutherSent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 2:39 PMSubject: Re: [lcafs] IntroductionWe are looking forward to meeting you! Mary and Don
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:59 PM, wicawi70 <jjpete70@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,I'm Joel.Or WiCaWi (Wisconsin-California-Wisconsin)I grew up in LaCrosse, attended Blessed Sacrament and Aquinas (class of 88). Started questioning the faith while at Aquinas.Attended UW-Madison. Discovered existential philosophy.Dropped out of college, moved with future wife to San Francisco.
Had the most amazing experiences there. Learned a lot about myself. Moved from "doubting" to agnostic to atheist.
Lived for 10 years in SF, then moved to Marin County to start a family.Shortly after we were married, my wife rediscovered her faith.
Some discomfort occurred as we balanced our two disparate worldviews, but we eventually settled.Gave birth to two beautiful children, a girl, Madeline, and a boy, Maxwell.Two years ago, we moved back to La Crosse to raise our children in the environment (and surrounded by family) that we both grew up in.Five months after arriving, my wife announced she was divorcing me and provided "religious differences" as one of the reasons.I didn't join this group as a divorce support group. I've been through all that. I've joined this group because since my return I've felt that I've moved "underground". In San Francisco and Marin, religious belief was casual and personal (I.E. kept to yourself).
Coming back to an active, open religious community has been a bit of a culture shock.I've greatly enjoyed the columns in the paper from this group, and I've found surprising support to these views from unsuspected places.I'm looking forward to conversing, contributing and hopefully meeting with some or all of you.Thanx.------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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